From: Jan Drew on 3 Nov 2009 22:12
On Nov 3, 9:35ï¿½pm, dr_jeff <u...(a)msu.edu> wrote:
From: PeterB - Original on 3 Nov 2009 22:52
On Nov 3, 9:35 pm, dr_jeff <u...(a)msu.edu> wrote:
> PeterB - Original wrote:
> >> VAERS was made to address a particular
> >> issue, that is, to catch any adverse events that might be occuring. It
> >> is not meant to prove the safety of anything.
> > More importantly, VAERS is not meant to determine the safety of
> > vaccine prior to use. But if adverse events associated with vaccine
> > were properly vetted, a meaningful review of vaccine safety could be
> > developed for those yet to be affected.
> Of course not.
Yes, the proper vetting of VAERS reports would permit a meaningful
review of vaccine safety in those already affected.
> VAERS is meant to catch adverse events after the vaccine
> is being used.
Other safety studies are done as part of the clinical
> trials prior to licensure.
I have found no meaningful safety data on vaccines. If I'm wrong,
where is it?
> >>> You might want to talk
> >>> to your sponsors about that.
> >> I can't do that. I don't have any sponsors.
> > You mean you don't have the balls to admit it.
> No, I mean that I only speak for myself. I get no money from any
> drug company or other type of pharmaceutical company.
I didn't say you did.
From: Mike on 4 Nov 2009 00:20
Mark Probert wrote:
> On Nov 3, 6:04 pm, dr_jeff <u...(a)msu.edu> wrote:
>> PeterB - Original wrote:
>>> On Nov 3, 6:42 am, "john" <nos...(a)bt.com> wrote:
>>>> VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now
>>>> speaking out clearly of the risks and dangers of vaccination.
>>>> We have tip toed around the American Medical model long enough. Vaccines
>>>> come with a great risk including juvenile diabetes, asthma, ADD, ADHD, and
>>>> Autism. And never mind the more subtle injury of teenagers who can't focus
>>>> and are depressed.
>>> When my cousin was killed by vaccine some years ago, the public still
>>> believed in the absolute safety of any medicine approved by
>>> government. Those days are over. This lesson also extends to areas
>>> beyond medicine. Thanks for the link.
>> Nothing is absolutely safe. When ones poops, there is a risk of bacteria
>> entering the blood stream. The government never claimed that vaccines
>> are absolutely safe. The lesson of how dangerous vaccine-preventable
>> diseases are has not been lost, either.
> I disagree. There are many people who claim that the diseases are mild
> and cause no long term problems.
This is true. With some diseases, for most people they are mild
and cause no long term problems. Same as with vaccines: safe for
> They claim the risk is higher with vaccination.
For some people this is true, for others, the opposite its true.
You never know. People have a right to assess risks and make
> I would love to see a nice, extensive herpes zoster epidemic and have
> these people have a lesson.
Are you saying that there were nice, extensive zoster epidemics and that
they were stopped by chickenpox vaccine? If not then what's the point?
I could say that the vaccine is more likely to bring zoster epidemics.
Exposure to kids infected with chickenpox were boosting older people's
immunity. Not any more. Once the chickenpox-vaccine generation reached
high school we started seeing chickenpox outbreaks in high schools.
When they reached college age the college chickenpox outbreaks began.
That did not happen before. Extrapolating from that, once they reach
old age... - well, most of people reading this, myself included will not
see what happens then. Herd immunity will be destroyed by vaccination.
> The immunity one gets from the disease
> does not last a lifetime.
For syphilis, yes, there is no immunity whatsoever. For a disease like
mumps, it is lifetime immunity.
> The complications of the disease often wait
> for adulthood.
Or the diseases wait for adulthood when the complications become
> That's why vaccines save lives.
Correction needed: *some* vaccines save lives. A blanket statement
"vaccines save lives" is incorrect.
From: Peter Moran on 4 Nov 2009 01:45
"PeterB - Original" <pkm(a)mytrashmail.com> wrote in message
On Nov 3, 6:02 pm, dr_jeff <u...(a)msu.edu> wrote:
> john wrote:
> > VaccinePrimer Oct23 mp4. Physicians and health professionals are now
> > speaking out clearly of the risks and dangers of vaccination.
> > We have tip toed around the American Medical model long enough. Vaccines
> > come with a great risk including juvenile diabetes, asthma, ADD, ADHD,
> > and
> > Autism. And never mind the more subtle injury of teenagers who can't
> > focus
> > and are depressed.
> That's totally untrue. Vaccines have been shown to be safe and
> effective. They are not 100% safe: There are some risks. However, the
> benefits greatly outweigh the risks. There is no evidence that vaccines
> cause ADHD, autism, difficulty focusing or depression. If I am
> incorrect, please provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal
In the absence of proper safety data on vaccine, it's use violates a
responsible application of the Precautionary Principle, which states
that proponents of any intervention (medical or otherwise) be required
to prove such safety. As a proponent of vaccine, it is YOUR
responsibility to produce that data.
PM Not really. We who have lived through the epidemics of the past know
from our own observations that vaccines save lives and a great deal of
morbidity at acceptable risk. My mother would never let me drink from a
public water fountain druing the polio epidemics and the hospitals had ward
after ward with of iron lungs. This is in prevaccination Australia where
there has been no change in sanitation levels or healthier living in any
We who also have medical training have an intimate aquaintance with the
history of vaccine development. So we can analyse propaganda like this
post and tell you what is wrong with it --- three things.
1. Smallpox vaccine did have significant risks. It was more dangerous than
any modern vaccine, but it was still still less lethal and damaging than
smallpox epidemics. For many years all travellers had to undergo it.
2. Vaccinia was a live vaccine so that it probably was quite often
ineffective in the days before widespread refrigeration
3. No data is provided about any other vaccine to show that the risks
outweigh the benefits.
Any nitwit can understand that once you have had measles or polio and most
other epidemic illnesses, you are extremely unlikely to ever get it again.
Why should it be so difficult to understand how sensitising the immune
system artifically to viral proteins will confer some or all of that
immunity, depending on the vaccine, at far less risk than the actual
No one is making anything up to make a buck.
Unfortunately, you can't,
because it doesn't exist. BTW, VAERS (which your own CDC claims is a
valid repository of adverse vaccine reports) has not been vetted by
the vaccine makers despite decades of access. You might want to talk
to your sponsors about that.
From: john on 4 Nov 2009 04:11
"dr_jeff" <utz(a)msu.edu> wrote in message news:4AF0B66B.9010205(a)msu.edu...
> That's totally untrue. Vaccines have been shown to be safe and effective.
> They are not 100% safe: There are some risks. However, the benefits
> greatly outweigh the risks. There is no evidence that vaccines cause ADHD,
> autism, difficulty focusing or depression. If I am incorrect, please
> provide the citations to the peer-reviewed journal articles.
"There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunization of children
does more harm than good."---Dr. J. Anthony Morris, former Chief Vaccine
Control Officer and research virologist, US FDA