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From: Chookie on
In article <4tor4tF14hhj2U1(a)>,
"Anne Rogers" <annekh23(a)> wrote:

> > I am having enormous trouble trying to picture it. I can picture someone
> > like Toypup's DS or Bizby's DD quite readily. This Pause of yours reminds
> > me of that weird thing at netball where somebody dances around holding a up
> > hand in front of the person who's trying to shoot. Completely ineffectual
> > and very silly to look at.
> completely ineffectual? it's darn hard to contentrate on shooting with
> someone doing that in front of you and if your the person doing it, your on
> your toes and ready to move when they do shoot, I've definitely saved goals
> that way

As you can probably guess I am not a netballer (or even slightly sporty). In
fact, it's still the only sport in which I have been sent off, and also the
only one in which I have been injured... in the same month at school! I was
sent off for the hand-waving thing; apparently I Did It Wrong :-P

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue
From: Ericka Kammerer on
cailleach(a) wrote:

> He might have a lot of things in his life just now that could make him
> feel that way. His medication routine is pretty stringent, and
> breathing trouble is stressful in itself. If your son is five, then he
> wont have been in school long? And the judo lessons? I'm sure these are
> good things in the long run, but in the short run maybe these add up to
> a lot of new demands and stresses in your son's life, and maybe he is
> reacting to the sum of all of it. Honestly, to me he really *doesn't*
> just sound defiant or stroppy or manipulative, instead he sounds as if
> he could be *terribly* anxious.

Actually, just to be pedantic again, the book in
question uses the word "manipulative" in a very particular
way, and in fact, one of the main reasons kids like this
manipulate is that they *are* very anxious. Some of the
most powerful motivators for manipulation are the desire
to avoid something one fears and the desire to control
one's environment. Kids who are confident and resilient
don't manipulate to this degree. They don't have to.
They have better things to do, though they're not
necessarily above it on occasion.

Best wishes,
From: Ericka Kammerer on
Stephanie wrote:

> What is SPR?

Stop-Pause-Redirect. It's a particular disciplinary
technique advocated in a book by Swihart and Cotter.

Best wishes,
From: Ericka Kammerer on
Rosalie B. wrote:

> Could you just say - "It makes me very upset to know that you might
> get really sick and have to go to the hospital because I haven't been
> able to give you your medicine"?
> I think someone else in the discussion might have put their finger on
> it - laughing and acting silly might be the result of nervousness or
> tension. My dad was that way.

I think some kids *are* very much that way, and
I'm sure he is nervous. But this is one of the insidious
things about this manipulation. It's a very vicious cycle.
The child manipulates in order to avoid what he fears and
to try to give himself a sense of control. However, when
he is *successful* at manipulating his parents, all of a
sudden he has the burden of realizing that he *IS* in
control. Now, there isn't anyone keeping him safe, because
things are going to go the way he wants them to go, because
he knows he's successful at manipulating. This leads to
more anxiety, and then he has to exercise more control
through more manipulation to try to deal with his anxiety.
This is particularly bad combined with the tendency of
younger children to use "magical thinking."
Somehow, you have to short-circuit this vicious
cycle. The only real way to take down his anxiety level
a bit is for him to trust that his parents will keep him spite of himself. No matter how bright, a child
this young isn't ready to take on all the responsibility
for his health and meds and so on. I would worry about
having a discussion with him that he might perceive as
blaming him for not doing a good enough job with his
meds or putting the responsibility on him to take his
meds might exacerbate this anxiety. I think it's good
to talk to him about how the process can go more easily
for everyone involved, but with the understanding that
his parents are going to ensure that he does what is
needful to safeguard his health. Period. He only gets
some input in the details. He doesn't have the responsibility
for his healthcare, and he doesn't have the privilege of
deciding about anything that is non-negotiable about
taking the meds.

Best wishes,
From: Chookie on
In article <I8WdnXw6ocOAVevYnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d(a)>,
Ericka Kammerer <eek(a)> wrote:

> I *think* I would have stopped him, moved him out
> of that room, or whatever. That would be continued
> non-compliant behavior, so I'd continue to stop and
> park him and give him the chance to calm down and give
> me his attention.

I'm just not seeing how you can "stop and park" a recalcitrant child without
physical contact, or "stop inappropriate behaviour".

> <shrug> All I can do is say what worked for
> *my* kid who was the one likely to turn it into a game
> of chase and wrestle. It worked for him, which is all
> that is really necessary. The goal is to eliminate
> his ability to manipulate, and he soon realized that
> his tactic of bolting wasn't an effective one. It
> didn't get him out of doing what he needed to do.

Yes, but WHAT DID YOU DO? I'm getting confused about which of your boys had
which characteristics. Is it that one is a bolter and the other a pouter?

1. The Bolter:
Grab and hold down.
*Magic happens* and child does not continue to struggle.
"Make" child do what is required.

2. The Pouter
Stand there disapprovingly.
*Magic happens* and child pays attention to you instead of his toys.
"Make" child do what is required.

I can't understand what the magic is and I do not know how you "made" your
children do what you wanted. Usually, your writing is very clear, but this
time I just can't picture what you are doing. You keep talking about
preventing them from doing something else wthout actually saying how you did
it. And I still can't work out what passive-agressive behaviour is (it's
another term I see here from time to time but nobody seems game to define it).

I am waiting for an inter-library loan of the book.

Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue
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