Next: action songs
From: Chookie on
In article <3Hrdh.26279$wP1.7475(a)newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>,
"toypup" <toypup(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> That's what we end up doing, but his neck muscles are strong, and it is not
> easy to keep the fit snug with him moving like that. I sometimes hold him
> so tight, I think I might be hurting him, but he keeps moving otherwise. As
> for the peak flow meter, you can't hold a kid down for that. As for the
> pills and liquids, he loves the chase and he takes forever chewing them up,
> or he may even spit the pills or liquids out. I once held him on the ground
> to force feed his liquid meds, but he spit it all over the kitchen. I held
> his nose and everything.
>
> It's not like we can't force him to do most of it eventually, it's that we
> don't want to have to do that every night. We are looking for a way out.
> It is driving DH crazy and he is losing his temper every night.

What a nightmare. I would probably have sold him to passing camel-traders by
now. Two things jump out at me. The first is that this is Classic
Attention-Seeking Behaviour (TM). He *knows* you need to do these things and
is performing in a way that maintains your attention on him for longer. I'd
be looking at the routine for the things that precede and succeed the
medication -- make sure there is something enjoyable straight after the
medication (eg bedtime story, family games, whatever), so that he has an
incentive to get it over with quickly. Secondly, if it's possible, have
something nice going on at the same time -- can he do his inhaler stuff in
front of the TV? (I'm just thinking of those women who do their ironing in
front of the TV.)

The second thing is that this is a hell of a medication routine for a small
boy. Up to four inhalers, a peak flow meter, PLUS multiple pills and
liquids?! That would be a chore for an adult and must seem like forever to
DS. Is there any way the number of medications could be reduced, combined or
changed? Complain to your doctor next time you go about the fights and how
long it takes (as for ). A talk to the pharmacist might also open up some
possibilities. And as a final thought -- could some of the aggro be a
side-effect of something?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue
From: Chookie on
In article <25-dnTzmXLIw2evYnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d(a)comcast.com>,
Ericka Kammerer <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote:

> >> For one of mine, it works to just stand over
> >> him until he chooses to stop goofing off. No touching--
> >> just standing disapprovingly. That's no fun. Yes, it
> >> is incredibly time consuming for me, but also for him.
> >
> > So while he's playing with Lego instead of tidying it up, you just stand
> > there disapprovingly? You have not explained what is happening. Can we
> > have an example that we can picture?
>
> No, I would put the Legos away or do something
> else that would prevent him from playing Legos. I would

So he pulls something else off the shelf while you're putting the Lego away --
what then?

> do what was necessary so that he couldn't do what he
> wanted to do, but I would not chase him and hold him
> down to attempt to effect a "Pause." If "Pause" has
> turned into a game of chase and wrestle, then you
> have to not engage in that way. Nevertheless, he
> can't do anything else until he makes the choice to
> do what is required.

I am having enormous trouble trying to picture it. I can picture someone like
Toypup's DS or Bizby's DD quite readily. This Pause of yours reminds me of
that weird thing at netball where somebody dances around holding a hand up in
front of the person who's trying to shoot. Completely ineffectual and very
silly to look at.

> In general, the child I was thinking about
> wouldn't go off and try to play with Legos. He'd
> try to go off and sulk or he'd just try to evade.
> Making it clear that I was willing to wait him
> out and he wasn't going to get a chance to go sulk
> or get away from me until he did what was necessary
> was enough to get him to get himself under control
> and pay attention.

Um, how do you stop a child *sulking*? The kid stands there pouting. You
can't *make* them pull their lip in. And how do you stop him *evading*? Run
around after him? What?

<profoundly thankful for a compliant DS1>

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue
From: bizby40 on

"Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8audndsoQJMr3-vYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
> bizby40 wrote:
>
>> This is an extreme example, but not particularly atypical. I think
>> that perhaps SPR is a very good tactic for a good number of kids,
>> but not the magic bullet that will work for all of them.

> Again, I'm not saying it
> the best approach in every situation or for every
> child. I'm just saying that the current situation
> isn't working, and there are other possibilities to
> think about or try.

Oh, that's okay. I wasn't trying to demand that you figure out how it
works for everyone. I can just understand Toypup's frustration
because I've dealt with similar issues, and it seemed that you were
saying that what she was doing was wrong, without offering a clear
explanation of what is right. I can certainly see your point though,
that it's not really possible for you to do that for any and every
situation.

Bizby


From: bizby40 on

"Chookie" <ehrebeniuk(a)fowlspambegone.com.au> wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-BBB7FA.17471206122006(a)news-vip.optusnet.com.au...
> In article <btCdnWnjj_sWkOvYnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d(a)adelphia.com>,
> "bizby40" <bizby40(a)adelphia.net> wrote:
>
>> Suppose the kids are watching TV, and I ask them to put away their
>> clothes. The next commercial comes and goes, and they haven't done
>> it. I will then ask again, and this time I will back it up by
>> turning
>> off the TV.
>>
>> I solved these by 1) disconnecting the cable to the upstairs TV,
>> and
>> 2) turning the knobs around so that she can no longer lock the
>> playroom door. So now she's likely to run to her room and slam the
>> door, or flounce off to the kitchen to get a drink, or basically do
>> anything she can do to avoid doing what was asked.
>>
>> I can follow her around preventing her from doing these things, and
>> I
>> do, but it amounts to shadowing her and getting between her and
>> things, and it starts feeling like physical intimidatation. She
>> gets
>> ever angrier and will escalate to screaming and/or violence and/or
>> destruction.
>
> So how DO you deal with it, Bizby? It sounds like a lot of hard
> work with
> this particular child.

It is, and it's to the point now where we're getting outside help.
The issues she is dealing with are not the typical kid issues. What I
do depends on the situation. Some things I just let go as not being
worth the struggle. Some things are important enough that if the
physical shadowing is the only thing that works, then that's what I'll
do. For most things it's a matter of when and how you ask.

> I suppose the interesting question is why DD doesn't
> feel that these things are her job.

I remember when DD was 1 1/2 or 2, and I was having trouble getting
her to get buckled into her car seat. Someone on here said something
like "I don't understand -- if they're never given the option *not* to
wear their seat belt, it will never occur to them to fight it." Well,
this child had never moved an inch in the car without her belt on, and
I rather resented the implication that I'd brought the situation on by
being too lax.

Now at age 11, the seatbelt is no longer an issue, and she buckles up
automatically, thank goodness. On the other hand, she would happily
never bathe or brush her teeth again, even though those have been
similarly consistantly insisted upon. Is it true that there are some
responsibilities that I should have passed onto her earlier in life?
Probably. But it's also true that this girl is likely to always rebel
against what she doesn't want to do, no matter how hard I work to make
it a habit.

Bizby


From: Ericka Kammerer on
bizby40 wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:8audndsoQJMr3-vYnZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
>> bizby40 wrote:
>>
>>> This is an extreme example, but not particularly atypical. I think
>>> that perhaps SPR is a very good tactic for a good number of kids,
>>> but not the magic bullet that will work for all of them.
>
>> Again, I'm not saying it
>> the best approach in every situation or for every
>> child. I'm just saying that the current situation
>> isn't working, and there are other possibilities to
>> think about or try.
>
> Oh, that's okay. I wasn't trying to demand that you figure out how it
> works for everyone. I can just understand Toypup's frustration
> because I've dealt with similar issues, and it seemed that you were
> saying that what she was doing was wrong, without offering a clear
> explanation of what is right. I can certainly see your point though,
> that it's not really possible for you to do that for any and every
> situation.

It's not so much that she is doing it "wrong,"
as what she was doing would be an effective way of
pausing some kids. It's just that *her* kid is clever
and persistent enough and has turned the tables on her.
So, it's "wrong" to do it this way for *her* kid, and
ideally she can find a way to pause her kid that works
for them. Maybe not, but that'll be the key to making
it work.
The bottom line is that he's manipulated this
situation. Whatever approach she takes, either she's
successful in shutting down his ability to inappropriately
manipulate, or she's not. If she's not, he will continue
to find ways to manipulate the situation. It is *really*
tough to shut down manipulation with bright, persistent
kids--been there, done that--so I sympathize greatly.
I just think that the bottom line remains. If they
*can* manipulate you successfully, they will, and
ultimately that is a destructive pattern for them
to live and learn.
I'm wondering...toypup, do you find any
help in the section of the book on extinction of
negative reinforcement? It seems like maybe he's
working *that* angle as well, and maybe those
techniques will help somewhat.

Best wishes,
Ericka
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