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From: Ericka Kammerer on
bizby40 wrote:

> This is an extreme example, but not particularly atypical. I think
> that perhaps SPR is a very good tactic for a good number of kids, but
> not the magic bullet that will work for all of them.

Nothing is a magic bullet for every situation,
but SPR is also a very flexible technique. Part of
making it work for you is understanding the theory
behind it (which is why I suggest getting and reading
the book rather than just going on a limited amount
of second hand information). Once you understand the
goal, you can try to fit exactly how you implement it
to the personality of your child. I'm sure there are
situations where it would be difficult and perhaps
something else would work better. Whether toypup
is in one of those or not, I can't say. I do think,
however, that getting into a pattern of making the
pause into a game is undermining the technique. It
can't work because the pause isn't actually a pause.
It's supposed to be a break in the power struggle,
and the clever little child has managed to turn it
into part of the power struggle. I think for *most*
kids, you can find a way to defuse that, though it
isn't necessarily easy. I had to find what worked
for mine (and it was different for different kids),
and I'm not sure how to advise anyone else exactly
how to do it for theirs. Again, I'm not saying it
the best approach in every situation or for every
child. I'm just saying that the current situation
isn't working, and there are other possibilities to
think about or try.

Best wishes,
Ericka
From: Ericka Kammerer on
Chookie wrote:
> In article <edudnfPnpMrQQOjYnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d(a)comcast.com>,
> Ericka Kammerer <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> bizby40 wrote:
>>> Please explain to me how you can insist that a child do nothing
>>> without physically restraining them, chasing after them to prevent
>>> them from doing other things, or bringing in other consequences which
>>> would go against the whole SPR idea?
>
> I was beginning to wonder, too.
>
>> It depends on the situation--you have to be
>> creative. Basically, you have to try to find a way
>> to interfere with them doing something without making
>> a game of it.
> <snip>
>> For one of mine, it works to just stand over
>> him until he chooses to stop goofing off. No touching--
>> just standing disapprovingly. That's no fun. Yes, it
>> is incredibly time consuming for me, but also for him.
>
> So while he's playing with Lego instead of tidying it up, you just stand there
> disapprovingly? You have not explained what is happening. Can we have an
> example that we can picture?

No, I would put the Legos away or do something
else that would prevent him from playing Legos. I would
do what was necessary so that he couldn't do what he
wanted to do, but I would not chase him and hold him
down to attempt to effect a "Pause." If "Pause" has
turned into a game of chase and wrestle, then you
have to not engage in that way. Nevertheless, he
can't do anything else until he makes the choice to
do what is required.
In general, the child I was thinking about
wouldn't go off and try to play with Legos. He'd
try to go off and sulk or he'd just try to evade.
Making it clear that I was willing to wait him
out and he wasn't going to get a chance to go sulk
or get away from me until he did what was necessary
was enough to get him to get himself under control
and pay attention. He learned very quickly that
the whole thing could be over in seconds if he
cooperated, or it could drag on for a very long time
and cut into all the other things he wanted to do.
I think that's the problem with catching them and
holding them down. They've made no commitment,
no choice to get themselves under control, and it's
still over relatively quickly so that they can play
the whole game again.

Best wishes,
Ericka
From: toypup on

"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:m5ecn2phpcsmvst29tkp8lr54tncfbrfjf(a)4ax.com...
> "toypup" <toypup(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> I still do not think this is a SPR type thing. I think it would be
> more productive to say - "I don't think you can get this mask to fit
> onto your face for more than six breaths" or "How many good breaths
> can you take" - something that challenges him to help rather than
> challenges him to get out of it.

Well, SPR obviously does not work for us.

We have done the fun med thing, but he does not go for that anymore. He
used to have fun counting to twenty with the mask on. In fact, he used to
love being the big boy and doing it all himself, but as the years roll on,
he finds all those fun tricks less appealing.

> In this case, is there a downside to capturing him and holding him
> down before you give him his meds?

That's what we end up doing, but his neck muscles are strong, and it is not
easy to keep the fit snug with him moving like that. I sometimes hold him
so tight, I think I might be hurting him, but he keeps moving otherwise. As
for the peak flow meter, you can't hold a kid down for that. As for the
pills and liquids, he loves the chase and he takes forever chewing them up,
or he may even spit the pills or liquids out. I once held him on the ground
to force feed his liquid meds, but he spit it all over the kitchen. I held
his nose and everything.

It's not like we can't force him to do most of it eventually, it's that we
don't want to have to do that every night. We are looking for a way out.
It is driving DH crazy and he is losing his temper every night.

> I think it astonishing that he will tell you that you've got the wrong
> meds and still make it difficult for you.

Well, he knows what goes where and that he doesn't like to get wrong,
whether it's meds or anything else (like he won't wear anyone else's
clothes, for instance).

> I bet DH would do better with putting DD to bed than with DS (it
> usually works that way). How about trading?
>

I dunno. I think he likes working with DS better. Sounds weird, but he
always wants to take DS places when we have to split up. He never asks to
take DD unless I tell him. Same with meds and bedtime routine. I think
it's because DD prefers me. She doesn't like him to do things for her, so
he naturally flows with that. Also, I think he is more comfortable with DS
because he is a boy. Don't flame me that DH must take care of DD, too. He
does. There are just certain jobs DH prefers to do with DS, even if it
drives him up the wall.


From: Ericka Kammerer on
toypup wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:OJWdnfCXlOLWVOjYnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
>> Remember that part of what makes the SPR work is that
>> you make it a choice between doing nothing and doing the
>> right thing. Having to hold him down is, unfortunately,
>> doing *something*. Instead of chasing him and holding
>> him down, insist that he pause in place (or come over and
>> stand by you, or whatever--don't make it a specific place,
>> like a chair, that he can play "keep away" with). Don't
>> touch him. If he runs away, prevent him from doing anything
>> else, but refuse to play chase or wrestle with him. This is
>> very annoying for the adult (not to mention time consuming),
>> but it will work with enough persistence.
>
> I really have no clue how to do that. He won't listen. Insisting won't
> work. If he runs away, how do I prevent him from doing anything else? I am
> willing to invest time. Believe me, I've spent most of the day some days
> just doing SPR. The evil eye doesn't work for me. It never has. If I tell
> him to just stay there and he does, he starts banging on the walls and doing
> unacceptable things. If I ignore that, he runs away. If I stand over him,
> he starts kicking me. He really, really loves SPR. In fact, he is doing
> things purposely to get SPR. He will sit down willingly for SPR sometimes
> just to start banging on the wall. Or, he takes SPR as the trade-off to not
> do whatever I want. You know, he'd rather just sit there, and he's done it
> for 3 hours straight. He lays there, I redirect, but he preferes to lay
> there, so he lays there some more, doing absolutely nothing. The one
> positive thing about SPR is that we don't escalate like we used to and I
> don't feel out of control but rather relaxed, but his behavior is no
> improvement.

He sounds like a very strong willed, and clever,
child. I think you have to accept that he's just testing
you, and is better at it than most ;-) I rather suspect
he doesn't *really* like sitting there doing nothing for
hours. He's just got nothing better to do than to figure
out where your breaking point is! ;-)
What are you doing for a Pause? Also, what are
you counting as a successful Pause? For instance, why
is he laying down somewhere? It's not a Pause if he's
supposed to be doing something and he's just lying
there. That's noncompliant behavior, not a Pause.
If you need to take him physically to park him
somewhere, it doesn't count as a successful Pause
if he eventually relaxes in your arms. If you
have to put him there, then you have to step back
and he has to make the choice to get himself under
control. If he darts out, you can recapture him and
put him back, but again, you have to step back and
he has to make a choice. Keep it moving along.
Park him somewhere different. Don't give him the
opportunity to just lay there for three hours. I
might be tempted to park him right next to me,
rather than in a specific chair or something like
that.
It's really hard to know what I would do
in your shoes, since I don't know him and a few
paragraphs can't convey all the subtlety of the
actual interaction. I'm just pointing out some
of the things that seem to raise a flag to me,
for whatever they're worth.

Best wishes,
Ericka
From: Jen on

"toypup" <toypup(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:9aidh.2628$hI.2607(a)newssvr11.news.prodigy.net...
> After initial success, things have broken down and I have decided DS likes
> SPR way too much. Part the problem is he sometimes won't stay put. I
> have to go get him, which is a game to him. Because he won't stay put, I
> have to hold him. Then, he starts kicking and scratching, which means I
> have to pin him down so I don't get hurt, which he just loves. I don't
> talk to him or interact in any way, just make it boring. In fact, it's
> actually relaxing for me, but DS likes it so much, he is willing to not do
> what I want him to do just so he can SPR. He will happily (I think he is
> really truly happy) for 3 hours, and the pauses are less than a minute,
> but we keep having to repeat. So, I think I will modify the SPR to just
> sending him to his room until he's ready to come out and do whatever.
> That tactic has worked for tantrums very well. Maybe it will work for
> doing his homework or his meds. Right now, he is happily doing his
> homework, because we are going to the park afterwards, only if his
> homework is finished by 9:48 (we are studying about time).


I'm wondering if it's actually more of a "control" issue. He feels that so
much of his life is totally out of his control, so mucking around like this
is the only way he has control over things. He has control of the situation
when he is sitting there for 3 hours, with you there with him.

Maybe you could try making him in charge of some of his medications, or
getting his sister prepared for hers, or taking some of his own, or
something of the sort. With supervision, of course. Also having him in
control of some other things in his life may help, if that's his personality
type. He would need to be the one in total control of the thing/things he
chooses, but you could still do the SPR when things go wrong.


Jen


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