Next: action songs
From: bizby40 on

"Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NuKdnSdgCd9UdevYnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
> bizby40 wrote:
>
>> It is, and it's to the point now where we're getting outside help.
>> The issues she is dealing with are not the typical kid issues.
>> What I do depends on the situation. Some things I just let go as
>> not being worth the struggle. Some things are important enough
>> that if the physical shadowing is the only thing that works, then
>> that's what I'll do. For most things it's a matter of when and how
>> you ask.
>
> Just as an aside, one of the things the authors
> recommend, at least in the early stages of SPR, is keeping
> a very close eye on the child in order to stop inappropriate
> behaviors *immediately.* (Not meant to imply that you don't
> do this--just observing that the shadowing is also something
> recommended by these authors as part of SPR.)

Also as an aside (that is, I'm not disagreeing with you), can you
imagine what it is like to try to keep that heightened vigilance
going, not for a few weeks, not even just for a few years, but
continually for their entire childhood? And doing it while caring for
another child as well?

Bizby


From: enigma on
Ericka Kammerer <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in
news:5dqdnT-1BrsfA-rYnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d(a)comcast.com:

> cailleach(a)hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
>> He might have a lot of things in his life just now that
>> could make him feel that way. His medication routine is
>> pretty stringent, and breathing trouble is stressful in
>> itself. If your son is five, then he wont have been in
>> school long? And the judo lessons? I'm sure these are good
>> things in the long run, but in the short run maybe these
>> add up to a lot of new demands and stresses in your son's
>> life, and maybe he is reacting to the sum of all of it.
>> Honestly, to me he really *doesn't* just sound defiant or
>> stroppy or manipulative, instead he sounds as if he could
>> be *terribly* anxious.
>
> Actually, just to be pedantic again, the book in
> question uses the word "manipulative" in a very particular
> way, and in fact, one of the main reasons kids like this
> manipulate is that they *are* very anxious. Some of the
> most powerful motivators for manipulation are the desire
> to avoid something one fears and the desire to control
> one's environment. Kids who are confident and resilient
> don't manipulate to this degree. They don't have to.
> They have better things to do, though they're not
> necessarily above it on occasion.

so, how does one help the child become more resiliant &
confidant?
i *know* one of the issues here (my house, not toypup's son)
is emotional immaturity. it's one of the reasons they wanted
to put him in a DD preschool. i have no idea what type of
therapy they would have used to make him more confidant &
resiliant, especially since he's *very* confidant about things
that he's good at.
he's getting very manipulative to get out of doing things he
doesn't perceive himself to be good at though. this is more
recent, since last year when his teacher pushed him pretty
hard to do a lot of math & reading...
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson
From: cailleach on

enigma wrote:

> i have no idea what type of
> therapy they would have used to make him more confidant &
> resiliant, especially since he's *very* confidant about things
> that he's good at.
> he's getting very manipulative to get out of doing things he
> doesn't perceive himself to be good at though. this is more
> recent, since last year when his teacher pushed him pretty
> hard to do a lot of math & reading...

As far as I know, the best way to get a child to do things he isn't
confident about is by starting off with the bar very low and with tons
of praise and encouragement even for doing the "easy" bits, so that he
experiences lots of success instead of failure. Then when he starts
thinking "this ain't so bad after all!" the bar starts rising, slowly
and with continuing praise and rewards.

I don't think you can totally change a person's personality, and some
people just *are* very brittle and can easily get discouraged if
they're pushed too hard. But there are still things you can do; you can
adapt to their personality and make it easier for them to try specific
things by *not* pushing too hard. And you can do the same "raising the
bar" thing on "failure management" too. I did this a bit with my son; I
went through a phase of doing nearly everything for him as soon as I
knew he wanted it. That helped him feel more secure, and then I could
try making him wait a bit, or gradually experience little problems that
were easily overcome, without him getting quite so upset and
discouraged. It was a beneficial circle.

All the best,

Cailleach

> Ericka Kammerer <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in
> news:5dqdnT-1BrsfA-rYnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d(a)comcast.com:
>
> > cailleach(a)hotmail.co.uk wrote:
> >
> >> He might have a lot of things in his life just now that
> >> could make him feel that way. His medication routine is
> >> pretty stringent, and breathing trouble is stressful in
> >> itself. If your son is five, then he wont have been in
> >> school long? And the judo lessons? I'm sure these are good
> >> things in the long run, but in the short run maybe these
> >> add up to a lot of new demands and stresses in your son's
> >> life, and maybe he is reacting to the sum of all of it.
> >> Honestly, to me he really *doesn't* just sound defiant or
> >> stroppy or manipulative, instead he sounds as if he could
> >> be *terribly* anxious.
> >
> > Actually, just to be pedantic again, the book in
> > question uses the word "manipulative" in a very particular
> > way, and in fact, one of the main reasons kids like this
> > manipulate is that they *are* very anxious. Some of the
> > most powerful motivators for manipulation are the desire
> > to avoid something one fears and the desire to control
> > one's environment. Kids who are confident and resilient
> > don't manipulate to this degree. They don't have to.
> > They have better things to do, though they're not
> > necessarily above it on occasion.
>
> so, how does one help the child become more resiliant &
> confidant?
> i *know* one of the issues here (my house, not toypup's son)
> is emotional immaturity. it's one of the reasons they wanted
> to put him in a DD preschool. i have no idea what type of
> therapy they would have used to make him more confidant &
> resiliant, especially since he's *very* confidant about things
> that he's good at.
> he's getting very manipulative to get out of doing things he
> doesn't perceive himself to be good at though. this is more
> recent, since last year when his teacher pushed him pretty
> hard to do a lot of math & reading...
> lee
> --
> Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
> there be
> one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
> blindfolded
> fear. - Thomas Jefferson

From: cailleach on

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

> Actually, just to be pedantic again, the book in question uses the word "manipulative" in a > very particular way, and in fact, one of the main reasons kids like this
> manipulate is that they *are* very anxious.

Yes, I do understand that, though I only read the intro on Amazon so I
haven't read enough of the book to know exactly what the authors mean
by "manipulative". My own son is highly anxious by nature and
*extremely* controlling, both by nature and also as a result of his
anxiety. I'm sure he'd *love* to be manipulative too, but having
Asperger's syndrome he doesn't really have the means. Controller,
absolutely, manipulator, no chance :-). So the SPR book may use
"manipulative" to include what I would call "controlling".

To take an extreme example - much more extreme than Toypup's I'm sure!
- one of the things which people interpret in different ways is that my
son may start being rude and defiant while smiling or laughing as if he
was enjoying the situation. So other people may think they are being
manipulated by a child who is getting pleasure from breaking rules and
upsetting them. Whereas *I* know that he isn't enjoying himself at all,
he is confused and distressed and this is a "red alert".

Now the actions we all take are fairly similar - to rein him in
sharply, remind him of the rules and prepare for the inevitable
meltdown(!) But because I am not really dealing with manipulation, the
*prevention* is different. The smiling defiance is the result of
stresses that have been building up for hours or days beforehand and it
means that my son has *already* been overloaded. The request that
triggered the defiance may not be the problem at all! So whatever
stressful events led up to the defiance should be either be avoided or
else better prepared for in future. Sometimes we do just have to go
through it, either from necessity (we do have to travel sometimes! :-))
or else in the hope that he will be less stressed second time around.
But trying to motivate my son to be less defiant in future does not
help at all.

> Kids who are confident and resilient don't manipulate to this degree. They don't have to.

True enough. So maybe toypup's son is not feeling remotely confident or
resilient right now. If so, then toypup may also need to look at all
the various factors that could be stressing her son out, and as well as
doing the SPR she might also benefit from lowering some of the stresses
on him. And maybe from praise and rewards just for meeting "normal"
expectations, too, to build up his confidence!

All the best,

Cailleach

> cailleach(a)hotmail.co.uk wrote:
>
> > He might have a lot of things in his life just now that could make him
> > feel that way. His medication routine is pretty stringent, and
> > breathing trouble is stressful in itself. If your son is five, then he
> > wont have been in school long? And the judo lessons? I'm sure these are
> > good things in the long run, but in the short run maybe these add up to
> > a lot of new demands and stresses in your son's life, and maybe he is
> > reacting to the sum of all of it. Honestly, to me he really *doesn't*
> > just sound defiant or stroppy or manipulative, instead he sounds as if
> > he could be *terribly* anxious.
>
> Actually, just to be pedantic again, the book in
> question uses the word "manipulative" in a very particular
> way, and in fact, one of the main reasons kids like this
> manipulate is that they *are* very anxious. Some of the
> most powerful motivators for manipulation are the desire
> to avoid something one fears and the desire to control
> one's environment. Kids who are confident and resilient
> don't manipulate to this degree. They don't have to.
> They have better things to do, though they're not
> necessarily above it on occasion.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericak

From: Ericka Kammerer on
bizby40 wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:NuKdnSdgCd9UdevYnZ2dnUVZ_s-dnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
>> bizby40 wrote:
>>
>>> It is, and it's to the point now where we're getting outside help.
>>> The issues she is dealing with are not the typical kid issues.
>>> What I do depends on the situation. Some things I just let go as
>>> not being worth the struggle. Some things are important enough
>>> that if the physical shadowing is the only thing that works, then
>>> that's what I'll do. For most things it's a matter of when and how
>>> you ask.
>> Just as an aside, one of the things the authors
>> recommend, at least in the early stages of SPR, is keeping
>> a very close eye on the child in order to stop inappropriate
>> behaviors *immediately.* (Not meant to imply that you don't
>> do this--just observing that the shadowing is also something
>> recommended by these authors as part of SPR.)
>
> Also as an aside (that is, I'm not disagreeing with you), can you
> imagine what it is like to try to keep that heightened vigilance
> going, not for a few weeks, not even just for a few years, but
> continually for their entire childhood? And doing it while caring for
> another child as well?

Sure. Again, not saying it's easy. Also, for a
child who is basically normal but still very challenging,
the idea is that you wouldn't have to shadow forever.
You do that in the beginning to establish the technique,
but after that you can gradually back off. Obviously, if
you've got a child who has some other issues going on,
it may take something different/additional.

Best wishes,
Ericka
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