Next: action songs
From: bizby40 on

Pardon the top-posting, but I'm responding to your entire description
and so didn't want to snip it, but I didn't want to make people scroll
that far either.

Toypup's son sounds much like my daughter. Things like hairy eyeballs
or firm statements, or silent waiting just do not, and never did work
with her. It may be that SPR is not the right parenting style for
this kind of child. It could also be that I don't understand it well
enough, or that age 11 is too late to start and I don't remember her
early years well enough to know how it would have worked then.

I do actually use some versions of this for some situations though.
Let me give you an example:

Suppose the kids are watching TV, and I ask them to put away their
clothes. The next commercial comes and goes, and they haven't done
it. I will then ask again, and this time I will back it up by turning
off the TV.

At this point, my son will get up and do it. My daughter, however,
will turn the TV back on. We have 3 or 4 remotes that will turn the
TV on in addition to the button on the TV itself, so it quickly became
a game to see if she could get it on, or I could keep it off. I
solved this issue by setting parental control. Once it is turned off,
I have to put in the code to turn it back on. So instead she ran
upstairs to the playroom and turned on that TV. Knowing I would come
after her, she locked the door behind her and stood holding the button
so I couldn't unlock it.

I solved these by 1) disconnecting the cable to the upstairs TV, and
2) turning the knobs around so that she can no longer lock the
playroom door. So now she's likely to run to her room and slam the
door, or flounce off to the kitchen to get a drink, or basically do
anything she can do to avoid doing what was asked.

I can follow her around preventing her from doing these things, and I
do, but it amounts to shadowing her and getting between her and
things, and it starts feeling like physical intimidatation. She gets
ever angrier and will escalate to screaming and/or violence and/or
destruction.

This is an extreme example, but not particularly atypical. I think
that perhaps SPR is a very good tactic for a good number of kids, but
not the magic bullet that will work for all of them.

Bizby

"Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
news:edudnfPnpMrQQOjYnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
> bizby40 wrote:
>> Please explain to me how you can insist that a child do nothing
>> without physically restraining them, chasing after them to prevent
>> them from doing other things, or bringing in other consequences
>> which would go against the whole SPR idea?
>
> It depends on the situation--you have to be
> creative. Basically, you have to try to find a way
> to interfere with them doing something without making
> a game of it. Sometimes it can be a simple as standing
> nearby and giving them the hairy eyeball. If you've
> got another parent handy, maybe the other parent stays
> in their face saying, "Mommy asked you to go see her.
> You need to do that now." It's hard to say specifically
> because you have to work with the child and the
> environment you have. What one child will perceive
> as a game, another child won't. You just have to figure
> out what it needs to be for your child. That's not
> always simple, and it is usually very annoying and
> time consuming, but you have to find a way to outlast
> them.
> For one of mine, it works to just stand over
> him until he chooses to stop goofing off. No touching--
> just standing disapprovingly. That's no fun. Yes, it
> is incredibly time consuming for me, but also for him.
> Again, part of what makes this successful is that the
> child has to choose between doing nothing and doing
> the right thing. They have to *choose* to "Pause."
> If you have to chase them down and hold them, they're
> not choosing and you're not really gaining. The beauty
> of it is that in addition to your insistence on them
> choosing acceptable behavior, they are *also* learning
> how to take a step back and regroup *themselves*. If
> they only way you get a "Pause" is to force it, they're
> not learning that lesson. So, even though it takes
> a lot longer (in the beginning), you have to keep at
> it until they choose to Pause. Your goal is just to
> make sure they can't do anything else effectively
> until they do. So, if you need to touch them to
> stop them from watching tv/playing with a toy/eating
> a snack/etc., you can do that. But they have to
> Pause by themselves (however you've defined that--
> could be come stand by me, could be sit on the
> stairs, could be sit in a specific chair, etc.).
> Again, I realize that is painful and
> time consuming. But whenever they know that they
> can win just by outlasting you, it's all over.
> They've always got more time than you do!
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka



From: Rosalie B. on
It sounds to me like taking his medicine is not going to be a very
good fit for SPR. He has to do it. It isn't an option. It's more
like having to sit in a car seat than it is like putting away clothes.

You say

!>I was trying to get DS to take his meds. We go through a lot of
!>them every day and he is always very silly when doing it and we want
!>him to stand still and do it properly.

So my question is - WHY does he need to stand still and not be silly?
What harm does that do if he gets the medication in the end? Might it
not be more productive to actually make a game of it? (Can you do
this standing on one foot?) If I were a boy taking lots of
medications every day, it would be dead boring. He's trying to make
it interesting.

I used to have to get an injection three times a week. We did it in
the intermission of the Lone Ranger radio show (my dad gave them to
me), which I liked to hear, and so it was kind of a reward for putting
up with the shot.

So I'd try the SPR on something where it sometimes does escalate into
a meltdown. Because even if he melts down, he's still going to have
to take the medicine - right?


"toypup" <toypup(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>"Ericka Kammerer" <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:OJWdnfCXlOLWVOjYnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d(a)comcast.com...
>> Remember that part of what makes the SPR work is that
>> you make it a choice between doing nothing and doing the
>> right thing. Having to hold him down is, unfortunately,
>> doing *something*. Instead of chasing him and holding
>> him down, insist that he pause in place (or come over and
>> stand by you, or whatever--don't make it a specific place,
>> like a chair, that he can play "keep away" with). Don't
>> touch him. If he runs away, prevent him from doing anything
>> else, but refuse to play chase or wrestle with him. This is
>> very annoying for the adult (not to mention time consuming),
>> but it will work with enough persistence.
>
>I really have no clue how to do that. He won't listen. Insisting won't
>work. If he runs away, how do I prevent him from doing anything else? I am
>willing to invest time. Believe me, I've spent most of the day some days
>just doing SPR. The evil eye doesn't work for me. It never has. If I tell
>him to just stay there and he does, he starts banging on the walls and doing
>unacceptable things. If I ignore that, he runs away. If I stand over him,
>he starts kicking me. He really, really loves SPR. In fact, he is doing
>things purposely to get SPR. He will sit down willingly for SPR sometimes
>just to start banging on the wall. Or, he takes SPR as the trade-off to not
>do whatever I want. You know, he'd rather just sit there, and he's done it
>for 3 hours straight. He lays there, I redirect, but he preferes to lay
>there, so he lays there some more, doing absolutely nothing. The one
>positive thing about SPR is that we don't escalate like we used to and I
>don't feel out of control but rather relaxed, but his behavior is no
>improvement.
>

From: Chookie on
In article <edudnfPnpMrQQOjYnZ2dnUVZ_vqdnZ2d(a)comcast.com>,
Ericka Kammerer <eek(a)comcast.net> wrote:

> bizby40 wrote:
> > Please explain to me how you can insist that a child do nothing
> > without physically restraining them, chasing after them to prevent
> > them from doing other things, or bringing in other consequences which
> > would go against the whole SPR idea?

I was beginning to wonder, too.

> It depends on the situation--you have to be
> creative. Basically, you have to try to find a way
> to interfere with them doing something without making
> a game of it.
<snip>
> For one of mine, it works to just stand over
> him until he chooses to stop goofing off. No touching--
> just standing disapprovingly. That's no fun. Yes, it
> is incredibly time consuming for me, but also for him.

So while he's playing with Lego instead of tidying it up, you just stand there
disapprovingly? You have not explained what is happening. Can we have an
example that we can picture?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue
From: toypup on

"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:si7cn2td8u470nlue49unr97ss4os0aa9d(a)4ax.com...
> It sounds to me like taking his medicine is not going to be a very
> good fit for SPR. He has to do it. It isn't an option. It's more
> like having to sit in a car seat than it is like putting away clothes.
>
> You say
>
> !>I was trying to get DS to take his meds. We go through a lot of
> !>them every day and he is always very silly when doing it and we want
> !>him to stand still and do it properly.
>
> So my question is - WHY does he need to stand still and not be silly?
> What harm does that do if he gets the medication in the end? Might it
> not be more productive to actually make a game of it? (Can you do
> this standing on one foot?) If I were a boy taking lots of
> medications every day, it would be dead boring. He's trying to make
> it interesting.

Well, he has inhalers that fit onto an aerochamber with a face mask. The
mask must fit firmly onto his face for six breaths or more. He will wiggle
and move to try to break that seal ===> meds do not get into his lungs.
There are up to four inhalers which he must use, depending on how he is
doing.

He has Advair, which requires special handling, like no blowing into the
unit, no tilting of the unit, etc. He has sometimes blown into the unit,
taken the unit and run with it only to activate it with it in a vertical
position.

He also has a peak flow meter. He must blow as hard as he can to get a good
reading. He blows gently or spits the breath to get readings that are way
too high or too low.

He must swallow his meds. He runs away from me when I bring the syringe or
the pills.

There is a long list of meds and when he is silly it takes half an hour to
get them all down. With the nebulizer, it can take longer. DH gets
frustrated. He is the one who usually does them for DS at night. I take
care of DD, who also has a list of meds. When I do them both, I sometimes
absentmindedly mix them up and give DD's meds to DS, although DS knows the
difference and tells me.

Don't get me wrong, DS does not do all the misbehaviors on every day, but it
is enough of a combination each night to make DH escalate his punishments to
unreasonable heights.



From: Rosalie B. on
"toypup" <toypup(a)sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
>"Rosalie B." <gmbeasley(a)mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:si7cn2td8u470nlue49unr97ss4os0aa9d(a)4ax.com...
>> It sounds to me like taking his medicine is not going to be a very
>> good fit for SPR. He has to do it. It isn't an option. It's more
>> like having to sit in a car seat than it is like putting away clothes.
>>
>> You say
>>
>> !>I was trying to get DS to take his meds. We go through a lot of
>> !>them every day and he is always very silly when doing it and we want
>> !>him to stand still and do it properly.
>>
>> So my question is - WHY does he need to stand still and not be silly?
>> What harm does that do if he gets the medication in the end? Might it
>> not be more productive to actually make a game of it? (Can you do
>> this standing on one foot?) If I were a boy taking lots of
>> medications every day, it would be dead boring. He's trying to make
>> it interesting.
>
>Well, he has inhalers that fit onto an aerochamber with a face mask. The
>mask must fit firmly onto his face for six breaths or more. He will wiggle
>and move to try to break that seal ===> meds do not get into his lungs.
>There are up to four inhalers which he must use, depending on how he is
>doing.
>
I still do not think this is a SPR type thing. I think it would be
more productive to say - "I don't think you can get this mask to fit
onto your face for more than six breaths" or "How many good breaths
can you take" - something that challenges him to help rather than
challenges him to get out of it.
..
>He has Advair, which requires special handling, like no blowing into the
>unit, no tilting of the unit, etc. He has sometimes blown into the unit,
>taken the unit and run with it only to activate it with it in a vertical
>position.
>
>He also has a peak flow meter. He must blow as hard as he can to get a good
>reading. He blows gently or spits the breath to get readings that are way
>too high or too low.
>
>He must swallow his meds. He runs away from me when I bring the syringe or
>the pills.
>
In this case, is there a downside to capturing him and holding him
down before you give him his meds?

>There is a long list of meds and when he is silly it takes half an hour to
>get them all down. With the nebulizer, it can take longer. DH gets
>frustrated. He is the one who usually does them for DS at night. I take
>care of DD, who also has a list of meds. When I do them both, I sometimes
>absentmindedly mix them up and give DD's meds to DS, although DS knows the
>difference and tells me.

I think it astonishing that he will tell you that you've got the wrong
meds and still make it difficult for you.

>Don't get me wrong, DS does not do all the misbehaviors on every day, but it
>is enough of a combination each night to make DH escalate his punishments to
>unreasonable heights.
>
I bet DH would do better with putting DD to bed than with DS (it
usually works that way). How about trading?

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