From: cjra on
On Dec 25, 8:06 am, Betsy <be...(a)eskimo.com> wrote:
> cjra wrote:
> > On Dec 23, 10:23 pm, Betsy <be...(a)eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> > She's also incredibly defiant now. If we say to not do something, she
> > does it 10x over....
>
> Handling a defiant older sibling can be extremely difficult when you
> have a new baby.  Often you are not in a position to do what you need to
> do to provide structure and discipline for the older one.
>
> If you are not in a position to be able to keep her from doing whatever
> it is, it may be better to avoid telling her not to.  If you tell her
> not to do something and she gets away with it, it reinforces the defiance..
>
> We have a rule at our house "don't suggest bad things" which means that
> we avoid mentioning a bad thing we are worried a child will do.  Instead
> we try to use redirection and positive suggestions for good activities
> before the bad thing has a chance to happen.

I'm working on that. But she'll do things like jump on me, "snap" a
blanket at me....potentially dangerous stuff that I need to stop and I
haven't been able to come up with quick re-direction. I'm trying to
convince DH to use re-direction more on other things (since he tends
to focus on the 'stop doing that" for stuff I'd consider easier to re-
direct).


>
>
>
> >> Is she between daycares right now because you are home with the baby?
> >> Especially with a new baby, her days may be much less structured than
> >> she is used to.
>
> > She is between daycares. We're going to start her part time in the new
> > one after the new year.
>
> Given the upheaval in her life and probable lack of structure caused by
> a new baby, her behavior doesn't seem surprising.
>
> One thing that helped my oldest was to make her a calendar.  It had 7
> columns for the days of the week.  I planned a schedule of daily
> activities that repeated weakly and drew pictures for each activity.  We
> talked about the pictures and I made up or used songs to go with some of
> them.
>
> She loved to look at the calendar frequently and know what would be
> coming up.  It added much needed structure and predictability to her
> life and I think it was a large factor in improving her behavior.
>
> With any child, but especially with a spirited child, consistency is
> extremely important.  Never threaten a consequence that you aren't able
> to enforce or won't go through with.  It is very important for both
> parents to be on the same page on this.
>

Good idea, thanks. I'll have to come up with some plan for activities.
Our days really are unstructured (there haven't been many so far, just
last week really), I'm just so focused on trying to get him nursing
and gaining weight....I try to include her by reading to her when I'm
nursing, but that's only worked once.

> I hope the birth went well.  I'm remembering your previous birth story,
> though it doesn't seem that long ago.

Thanks. It went great. DD's birth was so traumatic, this was so
peaceful! Still painful, but much nicer. I'll go ahead and post the
birth story.

Cherise
From: cjra on
On Dec 25, 9:02 am, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
> cjra <cjroh...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
> >That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> >makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
> >tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
> >like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
> >hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
> >past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
> >pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>
> I had my own spirited child, but she was the second one, and the next
> baby was 5 years younger.  I do agree that you should pick your
> battles, redirect and ignore the bad behavior.  It may take some time
> to get over this lump.
>
> I'd only offer two pieces of advice.  First make sure it isn't
> something physical that is the cause.

She was a bit sick and had a yeast infection for awhile, but that
seems to have resolved. I do think it's related to all the upheavals
of late.

>
> Second, talk to her sometimes.  Tell her the story of her birth. When
> mine were pre-verbal but were upset I would tell them the story of
> them.  Doesn't have to be elaborate.

She doesn't *like* her birth story.....I've tried to show her baby
pictures of herself, and she insists that's not her, it's another
baby. However, her birth was very traumatic (severe meconium
aspiration, in NICU not expected to survive....) I don't tell her that
stuff, but she has seen the pictures. She has empathy for the baby in
the pictures - she'll comment "oh, poor baby, she's sick." but will
insist it's not her. Even when I show her other pictures of her after
NICU, she denies any association with them until about 1 yr old, then
she recognizes herself. I've also tried telling her a pretty version
of her birth story, but she doesn't buy that, apparently.
From: Rosalie B. on
cjra <cjrohr31(a)hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Dec 25, 9:02�am, Rosalie B. <gmbeas...(a)mindspring.com> wrote:
>> cjra <cjroh...(a)hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
>> >makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
>> >tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
>> >like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
>> >hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
>> >past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
>> >pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>>
>> I had my own spirited child, but she was the second one, and the next
>> baby was 5 years younger. �I do agree that you should pick your
>> battles, redirect and ignore the bad behavior. �It may take some time
>> to get over this lump.
>>
>> I'd only offer two pieces of advice. �First make sure it isn't
>> something physical that is the cause.
>
>She was a bit sick and had a yeast infection for awhile, but that
>seems to have resolved. I do think it's related to all the upheavals
>of late.
>
It may take longer to get all the way over it - not sick enough to be
really noticeably sick, but not really well either.
>>
>> Second, talk to her sometimes. �Tell her the story of her birth. When
>> mine were pre-verbal but were upset I would tell them the story of
>> them. �Doesn't have to be elaborate.
>
>She doesn't *like* her birth story.....I've tried to show her baby
>pictures of herself, and she insists that's not her, it's another
>baby. However, her birth was very traumatic (severe meconium
>aspiration, in NICU not expected to survive....) I don't tell her that
>stuff, but she has seen the pictures. She has empathy for the baby in
>the pictures - she'll comment "oh, poor baby, she's sick." but will
>insist it's not her. Even when I show her other pictures of her after
>NICU, she denies any association with them until about 1 yr old, then
>she recognizes herself. I've also tried telling her a pretty version
>of her birth story, but she doesn't buy that, apparently.

I didn't mean to show her pictures!!! She probably does know that it
was a traumatic time for you, and she may be afraid that since the
second one was easier that you will love the baby more and love her
less because she was more trouble for you. It isn't the kind of thing
that she will be able to articulate. I know my son felt that he
wasn't wanted because he overheard us say that he wasn't planned. I
never knew that until he was in his 30s.


From: Welches on

"cjra" <cjrohr31(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d427e2ee-b6d9-48e4-a200-b52074962f8f(a)g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> Last few months I came on here all I found was spam, but if there's
> any one still out there, I'd love some advice! You all have been so
> helpful in the past.
>
> My 3.5 yr old is a "Spirited Child." Definitely. However, her
> spiritedness has 99% of the time been of a happy sort. Her default
> demeanor was positive, happy. She's just a little hurricane of
> activity. She'd been far from perfect and had tested her limits often,
> but nothing we couldn't handle with some effort and patience.
>
> That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
> tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
> like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
> hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
> past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
> pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>
> I'd lean towards it being a phase, it's just that it was rather
> sudden. Her behaviour mirrors that of a friend's kid, whom she spends
> a lot of time with. And at first I thought she was just imitating her,
> but this has gone on too long for that, and she hasn't spent as much
> time with her since this started.
>
> Now, there IS a new baby in the house as of 2 weeks ago, but this
> behaviour started a few weeks before that. She's otherwise thrilled
> with her baby brother, loves him to pieces and always wants to be with
> him. She's had another major change with her daycare closing - she
> was at an in home daycare for the past 2.5 years and loved "Nana." As
> of last week Nana retired....but then DD has talked for the past few
> weeks about starting school, so hasn't seemed too disappointed about
> not seeing Nana anymore. And again, this behaviour started weeks
> before she even knew about Nana retiring. I do think Nana was a bit
> stressed and scolded her a bit more in the final weeks (DD is still
> having potty training issues, but was doing well). And DH has been
> super stressed for the past month or two about work. And of course new
> baby stress (baby is not gaining well and not latching so I'm nursing
> every 2 hour for 30 minutes).
>
> I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible - fortunately
> this baby sleeps (unlike her), so I spend all that time he's asleep
> focusing on her. But this behaviour is just constant. No more my
> laughing singing dancing child, in her place is a mean, unhappy,
> aggressive, screaming child. I feel so bad *for* her as well as for
> us, because this is so difficult.
>
> I'm at a total loss about what to do.
>
> Any suggestions?
I would put it down to the new baby. Not that you can ignore the behaviour,
but she will have known baby was coming. #2 never used her buggy until I was
about 7 months with #3 when she anounced "that baby isn't using my buggy".
She'd seemed really excited about the new baby, and I think that was the
only negative expressed to me, but she hated going in the buggy, so it
completely took me by surprise.
If baby's crying and you're doing something with #1 then say "no, #2 you'll
have to wait, I'm busy with #1" so that #1 knows they get you when they need
to.
If you're all stressed then she's going to pick that up too.
Agree with pick your battles. I remember ignoring #1 drawing on the wall
when #2 was having a midwife check. Afterwards me and her cleaned it up with
baby wipes, and afterwards I said "what a pity cleaning it took that time
when we could have done something fun". She never did it again, and I didn't
have to tell her off or be cross with her.
I go for one warning, then act. If it's dangerous, then straight to naughty
step/room/ whereever away. If she's having a tantrum then either pick up and
remove if you can, or go away and leave her. Give her a cuddle afterwards.
Maybe she needs sometimes to go out with you on your own. Leave the baby for
40minutes and have a drink at a cafe, or go and buy her a new dress.
I'm not sure how talking about it helps. A child may say "I understand why"
when they're calm and peaceful, but when the flash point comes up they won't
really remember it.
(((hugs)))
Debbie


From: cjra on
On Dec 26, 9:28 am, "Welches" <debbie.welc...(a)SPAMntlworldPLEASE.com>
wrote:
> "cjra" <cjroh...(a)hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:d427e2ee-b6d9-48e4-a200-b52074962f8f(a)g26g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Last few months I came on here all I found was spam, but if there's
> > any one still out there, I'd love some advice! You all have been so
> > helpful in the past.
>
> > My 3.5 yr old is a "Spirited Child." Definitely. However, her
> > spiritedness has 99% of the time been of a happy sort. Her default
> > demeanor was positive, happy. She's just a little hurricane of
> > activity. She'd been far from perfect and had tested her limits often,
> > but nothing we couldn't handle with some effort and patience.
>
> > That all changed about a month ago. It was rather sudden one day which
> > makes me worried. It started off with weepiness. She wasn't throwing
> > tantrums, but just started to cry about everything - very much not
> > like her. In the past if she cried, it was because she was really
> > hurt. Then it progressed to major tantrums. We'd had tantrums in the
> > past, but nothing like this - very aggressive with me and DH, hitting,
> > pulling, kicking, screaming, totally in hysterics.
>
> > I'd lean towards it being a phase, it's just that it was rather
> > sudden. Her behaviour mirrors that of a friend's kid, whom she spends
> > a lot of time with. And at first I thought she was just imitating her,
> > but this has gone on too long for that, and she hasn't spent as much
> > time with her since this started.
>
> > Now, there IS a new baby in the house as of 2 weeks ago, but this
> > behaviour started a few weeks before that. She's otherwise thrilled
> > with her baby brother, loves him to pieces and always wants to be with
> > him.  She's had another major change with her daycare closing - she
> > was at an in home daycare for the past 2.5 years and loved "Nana." As
> > of last week Nana retired....but then DD has talked for the past few
> > weeks about starting school, so hasn't seemed too disappointed about
> > not seeing Nana anymore. And again, this behaviour started weeks
> > before she even knew about Nana retiring. I do think Nana was a bit
> > stressed and scolded her a bit more in the final weeks (DD is still
> > having potty training issues, but was doing well). And DH has been
> > super stressed for the past month or two about work. And of course new
> > baby stress (baby is not gaining well and not latching so I'm nursing
> > every 2 hour for 30 minutes).
>
> > I'm trying to spend as much time with her as possible - fortunately
> > this baby sleeps (unlike her), so I spend all that time he's asleep
> > focusing on her. But this behaviour is just constant. No more my
> > laughing singing dancing child, in her place is a mean, unhappy,
> > aggressive, screaming child. I feel so bad *for* her as well as for
> > us, because this is so difficult.
>
> > I'm at a total loss about what to do.
>
> > Any suggestions?
>
> I would put it down to the new baby. Not that you can ignore the behaviour,
> but she will have known baby was coming. #2 never used her buggy until I was
> about 7 months with #3 when she anounced "that baby isn't using my buggy"..
> She'd seemed really excited about the new baby, and I think that was the
> only negative expressed to me, but she hated going in the buggy, so it
> completely took me by surprise.
> If baby's crying and you're doing something with #1 then say "no, #2 you'll
> have to wait, I'm busy with #1" so that #1 knows they get you when they need
> to.
> If you're all stressed then she's going to pick that up too.
> Agree with pick your battles. I remember ignoring #1 drawing on the wall
> when #2 was having a midwife check. Afterwards me and her cleaned it up with
> baby wipes, and afterwards I said "what a pity cleaning it took that time
> when we could have done something fun". She never did it again, and I didn't
> have to tell her off or be cross with her.
> I go for one warning, then act. If it's dangerous, then straight to naughty
> step/room/ whereever away. If she's having a tantrum then either pick up and
> remove if you can, or go away and leave her. Give her a cuddle afterwards..
> Maybe she needs sometimes to go out with you on your own. Leave the baby for
> 40minutes and have a drink at a cafe, or go and buy her a new dress.
> I'm not sure how talking about it helps. A child may say "I understand why"
> when they're calm and peaceful, but when the flash point comes up they won't
> really remember it.
> (((hugs)))
> Debbie

Yeah, It's definitely the baby.....today she told DH (after asking to
hold the baby) "I don't like my baby brother. I want him to go back in
mommy's tummy." Ouch. Breaks my heart. By comparison, the weekend
before he was born, she helped DH put the bassinet together and said
"This is going to be the best baby ever!" and the next morning ran
into the room asking "where's the baby?" So I had been more
hopeful....She's also trying to lay in his bassinet (funny because she
never slept in it herself when she was a baby) and sit in his
maxicosi....She still smothers him with kisses and hugs.

I'm trying to do more one on one stuff with her, but it'll be hard
during the week when I'm on my own. I keep reminding her I love her,
try to be positive with her and focus on re-direction when she does
stuff. I hope this means that it'll pass though.