From: Mike on
Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> john wrote:
>> http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO2009.pdf
>>
>>
>> Figures one (1) through eleven (11) graphically illustrate that in
>> North America, Europe, and the South Pacific , major declines in
>> life-threatening infectious diseases occurred historically either
>> without, or far in advance of public immunization efforts for specific
>> diseases as listed. This provides irrefutable evidence that vaccines
>> are not necessary for the effective elimination of a wide range of
>> infectious diseases
>> Figures eleven (12) through twenty-four (24) graphically
>> illustrate that immunization is not by any means a proven and
>> foolproof measure for protection from various infectious disease
>> conditions. It is often inconsequential epidemiologically, and in some
>> cases it is shown to actually worsen health-care outcomes.
>>
>
>
> http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/measles/

So?

The point was that measles incidence and mortality sharply decreased
well before the vaccinations. It stands.

Some numbers: 863 deaths in the USA in the 1958-1967 - that is, 10 years
before the vaccinations.
In 1968-1977 - 292 deaths
In 1979-1988 - 140
In 1989-1998 - 10

So far, so good. But it 1933, there were 44 deaths in the FIRST 10 WEEKS
in New York City ALONE.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,747256,00.html

There are also graphs at http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/
and
http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/vaccines-cure-or-cause/

We can see for example that measles mortality in the USA in 1933 was
about 80 cases per 1 million population - that is, about 10,000 cases.
Per year, not per 10 years.

That translates to 92% reduction in 35 years from 1933 to 1968,
without vaccinations.

Now vax flacks want us to believe that 66% or 87% decrease of deaths
in 10 years are solely the result of vaccinations.
Sorry, it does not fly. Part of it - yes, but all of it - no.
From: Mark Probert-Drew on
On Mar 25, 11:16 pm, Mike <M...(a)localhost.localdomain> wrote:
> Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > john wrote:
> >>http://genesgreenbook.com/resources/obamsawin/ImmunizationGraphs-RO20....
>
> >>   Figures one (1) through eleven (11) graphically illustrate that in
> >> North America, Europe, and the South Pacific , major declines in
> >> life-threatening infectious diseases occurred historically either
> >> without, or far in advance of public immunization efforts for specific
> >> diseases as listed. This provides irrefutable evidence that vaccines
> >> are not necessary for the effective elimination of a wide range of
> >> infectious diseases
> >>      Figures eleven (12) through twenty-four (24) graphically
> >> illustrate that immunization is not by any means a proven and
> >> foolproof measure for protection from various infectious disease
> >> conditions. It is often inconsequential epidemiologically, and in some
> >> cases it is shown to actually worsen health-care outcomes.
>
> >http://jdc325.wordpress.com/2009/02/27/measles/
>
> So?
>
> The point was that measles incidence and mortality sharply decreased
> well before the vaccinations. It stands.
>
> Some numbers: 863 deaths in the USA in the 1958-1967 - that is, 10 years
> before the vaccinations.
> In 1968-1977 - 292 deaths
> In 1979-1988 - 140
> In 1989-1998 - 10
>
> So far, so good. But it 1933, there were 44 deaths in the FIRST 10 WEEKS
> in New York City ALONE.http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,747256,00.html
>
> There are also graphs athttp://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/
> and
>  http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/vaccines-cure-or-cause/
>
> We can see for example that measles mortality in the USA in 1933 was
> about 80 cases per 1 million population - that is, about 10,000 cases.
> Per year, not per 10 years.
>
> That translates to 92% reduction in 35 years from 1933 to 1968,
> without vaccinations.
>
> Now vax flacks want us to believe that 66% or 87% decrease of deaths
> in 10 years are solely the result of vaccinations.
> Sorry, it does not fly. Part of it - yes, but all of it - no.-

What flies is that after better sanitation, etc. reduced measles
incidence, it was vaccination that was responsible for the further
reduction in incidence, which has now been undermined by the anti-vax
liars, etc. Being in that remainder after the big reduction just
sucks. Good thing vaccination can prevent that.

From: john on

"Mike" <Mike(a)localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
> Sorry, it does not fly. Part of it - yes, but all of it - no.

None of it, UK measles deaths declined 99.4% before vaccination in 1968.
Deaths are all down to Allopathy which suppresses the truth, mostly the
correct therapies, eg Vitamin C, naturopathy. Most deaths are due to
chemotherapy.

Then the MMR vaccine created a huge upsurge in autism on top of the mercury
DPT vaccines, along with bowel disease. Also death from MMR are way over
measles deaths.


From: Beverly Erlebacher on
In article <hoh8us$5sv$1(a)news.eternal-september.org>,
Mike <Mike(a)localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>The point was that measles incidence and mortality sharply decreased
^^^^^^^^^
>well before the vaccinations. It stands.
>
>Some numbers: 863 deaths in the USA in the 1958-1967 - that is, 10 years
>before the vaccinations.
>In 1968-1977 - 292 deaths
>In 1979-1988 - 140
>In 1989-1998 - 10

Note that you present no evidence of reduction of measles *incidence*,
only of measles *mortality*.

>We can see for example that measles mortality in the USA in 1933 was
>about 80 cases per 1 million population - that is, about 10,000 cases.
>Per year, not per 10 years.
>
>That translates to 92% reduction in 35 years from 1933 to 1968,
>without vaccinations.

Almost all that reduction in *mortality* was due to the availability of
antibiotics after WWII, because the major cause of measles mortality
was bacterial pneumonia, which could not be effectively treated before
antibiotics. The next greatest cause of measles mortality, measles
encephalitis, was not affected. Only vaccination can prevent measles
encephalitis.

Before the vaccine, it was accepted that just about every child would
get measles. The *incidence* remained very high. I know -- I was
there.

>Now vax flacks want us to believe that 66% or 87% decrease of deaths
>in 10 years are solely the result of vaccinations.

A reduction from 863 to 10 is almost 99%. A reduction from 292 to 10
is almost 97%. A reduction from 140 to 10 is about 93%. The measles
vaccine wasn't available to all children in the US, especially at first,
so the plummetting numbers of deaths reflect increased numbers of
children protected by vaccination, and hence measles encephalitis, the
main cause of measles deaths when effective medical care for bacterial
pneumonia is available.

>Sorry, it does not fly. Part of it - yes, but all of it - no.

It's characteristic of medical denialists to distort statistics. Death
is not the only bad outcome of measles. One complication, measles
encephalitis, is still impossible to treat effectively. It can not only
cause death, but commonly causes permanent brain damage and blindness.
Before the vaccine, measles was the most common cause of blindness in
children.

By reducing the incidence of measles, ideally to zero, as is common in
more advanced countries than the US, vaccines prevent not only measles
deaths, but brain damage and blindness. And secondary pneumonia after
measles. And a lot of suffering by children, and those who love and
care for them.

Btw, I note that you leave out the figures for 1978 and for 1999-2008
above. I wonder why that is? I also wonder why deaths for the years
between 1933 and 1958 are not broken down in a way to show the effect
of the advent of antibiotics. But as part of the denialist agenda,
you wouldn't want to credit antibiotics with any benefits, would you?


From: john on

"Beverly Erlebacher" <bae(a)cs.toronto.edu> wrote in message
> of the advent of antibiotics. But as part of the denialist agenda,
> you wouldn't want to credit antibiotics with any benefits, would you?
>
>

"Up to 90% of the total decline in the death rate of children between
1860-1965 because of whooping cough, scarlet fever, diptheria, and measles
occurred before the introduction of immunisations and antibiotics."---Dr
Archie Kalokerinos, M.D. (Introduction to AIDS Time Bomb by John West)

if you vax denialists really cared about measles deaths you would be using
vitamin C, since 1949 http://whale.to/a/vit_c_cons.html