From: Greegor on
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/msg/3f09e98311b27807

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/30/france.dead.babies/index.html
French woman accused of killing 8 newborns 'very distressed'By the CNN
Wire StaffJuly 30, 2010 12:57 p.m. EDT

Woman held over the deaths of 8 babiesSTORY HIGHLIGHTS
Mother's attorney says she's "distressed," "depressed" and "falling
apart"
Attorney says the woman admits killing and hiding the babies, but
denies burying them
Daughters say news that their mother killed 8 newborns is
"incomprehensible"
Prosecutors say the woman is overweight and could conceal her
pregnancies
Douai, France (CNN) -- A French woman who admitted to giving birth to
and then smothering eight babies over a 17-year period is "falling
apart," according to her attorney.

Lawyer Frank Berton told CNN Friday the woman, Dominique Cottrez, was
"psychologically very distressed. She is depressed and falling apart.
However, she admits to the crimes and she even helped the police
discover the bodies."

Cottrez told investigators she killed the babies because she did not
want to have any more children and did not want to see doctors for
contraceptives, prosecutor Eric Vaillant told reporters Thursday.
Cottrez is overweight and was able to conceal the pregnancies, he
said. On Thursday, prosecutors said they had charged her with murder.

"She has been plagued by this for a long time and now she is
relieved," Attorney Burton said. "My client will be undergoing
psychological tests and treatment to try and understand what pushed
her to commit these murders." Burton speculated on one reason: "I
believe she could have suffered from pregnancy denial." Burton said
Cottrez was a nurse assistant. "She comes from a conventional
background. Something went very wrong. One cannot spiral down into
horror without an explanation."

Cottrez was secretive but always supportive of her family, two of her
daughters said in a local newspaper report published Friday.

"It's incomprehensible," Virginie, 21, told La Voix du Nord newspaper.

Cottrez said she hid the pregnancies and deaths from her husband,
Vaillant said. And daughters Virginie and Emeline, who came to court
to support their mother Thursday, told La Voix du Nord they were also
shocked by the news.

"We never noticed anything. She had moments of fatigue, it's true, but
she was working almost 24 hours a day. She would wake up early for her
work as a nurse's home aid, and when she would return home, she had
her housework," the newspaper reported the daughters' saying.



Map: Babies' bodies found in France RELATED TOPICS
France
They described their mother as a caring person who often babysat her
grandchildren.

"For us, it's something that one sees on television, but not in a
little town like ours," Emeline said, according to La Voix du Nord.

The case came to light when a couple gardening in their backyard in
the northern town of Villers-au-Tertre found two babies' bodies in
sealed plastic bags and called police.

As word spread and reporters descended on the village, which local
media have said has a population of about 700 people, residents said
they were still reeling from the news.

Cottrez, 45, grew up in Villers-au-Tertre. Her parents, farmers who
are now dead, owned a large part of the arable land in the village,
according to La Voix du Nord.

Thursday morning, the village priest left eight candles in front of
the door to the couple's home, La Voix du Nord reported.

Police spoke to Cottrez and her husband, who had previously lived in
the home, and Cottrez admitted immediately that she was the mother of
the two babies the couple found gardening, Vaillant said. She then
told police about six others concealed in their garage, Vaillant
said.

Those six bodies were also in sealed plastic bags but were covered by
various objects, he said.

Cottrez's attorney said Friday she denies burying the babies. "She is
adamant about the fact that she did not bury the babies in the garden.
She also says it is definitely not her husband. We don't know who did
it but she is certain she didn't do it and neither did her husband,"
Burton said.

The babies were born between 1989 and 2006, but their exact birthdates
aren't known, Vaillant said.

Cottrez had psychological problems from her first pregnancy, said
Pierre-Jean Gribouva, the lawyer for her husband.

"My client is in a deep state of shock," Gribouva told CNN affiliate
BFM. "He had no idea about this. He has totally fallen apart."

A difficult first pregnancy sparked Cottrez's actions, Vaillant said.
Because of her weight, the first pregnancy was "traumatic," and she
didn't want to go through it again, he said.

Vaillaint did not explain why Cottrez went through a second pregnancy
with her other daughter before apparently committing the crimes.

The father, Pierre-Marie Cottrez, hopes the public does not make
"simplistic conclusions" about his wife, Gribouva told BFM.

Despite reports that the husband had been charged, Vaillant said he
was free to go but may still be investigated. Vaillant said he
personally still had "doubts" about the father's story.

"The sky has fallen in on his head," Vaillant said of the father.

CNN's Saskya Vandoorne and Miranda Leitsinger contributed to this
report.




G > What IS your point in posting this, Dan?
G > Do you think CPS IN FRANCE could have prevented this?

DJS3 > Do you not see a point in posting this story, grag?

G > It looks like you hate parents and you seek
G > governmental intrusion into families using
G > events like this to justify such intrusions.
G >
G > It's as if you work for the caseworkers or their labor union.
G >
G > Or the Socialist party.

DJS3 > You failed to answer my question, grag.

G > You're the one who posted the news story
G > about the French Mom who concealed and
G > killed 8 newborns over the years.
G > You think I should explain why YOU posted it?

DJS3 > The question was "Do you not see a
DJS3 > point in posting this story, grag?"

G > Since YOU posted it, that would be for you to say.

DJS3 > Yes, I had a point in posting the story.

DJS3 > Do you not see a point in posting this story, grag?
DJS3 >
DJS3 > The reason I ask that question, grag, is because
DJS3 > the simple posting of the story with no
DJS3 > comments by me caused you to conclude I
DJS3 > "hate parents," and I "seek governmental
DJS3 > intrusion into families using events like this
DJS3 > to justify such intrusions."
DJS3 >
DJS3 > Do you not think the killing of eight babies
DJS3 > justifies governmental intrusion into this family?

Hindsight is always easy.

Do you really want the level of governmental intrusion
that it would take to prevent a chubby woman from
secretly giving birth in a garage and killing those
babies?

In order for CPS to prevent something like this
what level of intrusion would it take?

What level of governmental intrusion are
you trying to sell to prevent such actions?


From: Dan Sullivan on
On Jul 31, 9:57 am, Greegor <greego...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/...
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/30/france.dead.babies/index.html
> French woman accused of killing 8 newborns 'very distressed'By the CNN
> Wire StaffJuly 30, 2010 12:57 p.m. EDT
>
> Woman held over the deaths of 8 babiesSTORY HIGHLIGHTS
> Mother's attorney says she's "distressed," "depressed" and "falling
> apart"
> Attorney says the woman admits killing and hiding the babies, but
> denies burying them
> Daughters say news that their mother killed 8 newborns is
> "incomprehensible"
> Prosecutors say the woman is overweight and could conceal her
> pregnancies
> Douai, France (CNN) -- A French woman who admitted to giving birth to
> and then smothering eight babies over a 17-year period is "falling
> apart," according to her attorney.
>
> Lawyer Frank Berton told CNN Friday the woman, Dominique Cottrez, was
> "psychologically very distressed. She is depressed and falling apart.
> However, she admits to the crimes and she even helped the police
> discover the bodies."
>
> Cottrez told investigators she killed the babies because she did not
> want to have any more children and did not want to see doctors for
> contraceptives, prosecutor Eric Vaillant told reporters Thursday.
> Cottrez is overweight and was able to conceal the pregnancies, he
> said. On Thursday, prosecutors said they had charged her with murder.
>
> "She has been plagued by this for a long time and now she is
> relieved," Attorney Burton said. "My client will be undergoing
> psychological tests and treatment to try and understand what pushed
> her to commit these murders." Burton speculated on one reason: "I
> believe she could have suffered from pregnancy denial." Burton said
> Cottrez was a nurse assistant. "She comes from a conventional
> background. Something went very wrong. One cannot spiral down into
> horror without an explanation."
>
> Cottrez was secretive but always supportive of her family, two of her
> daughters said in a local newspaper report published Friday.
>
> "It's incomprehensible," Virginie, 21, told La Voix du Nord newspaper.
>
> Cottrez said she hid the pregnancies and deaths from her husband,
> Vaillant said. And daughters Virginie and Emeline, who came to court
> to support their mother Thursday, told La Voix du Nord they were also
> shocked by the news.
>
> "We never noticed anything. She had moments of fatigue, it's true, but
> she was working almost 24 hours a day. She would wake up early for her
> work as a nurse's home aid, and when she would return home, she had
> her housework," the newspaper reported the daughters' saying.
>
> Map: Babies' bodies found in France RELATED TOPICS
> France
> They described their mother as a caring person who often babysat her
> grandchildren.
>
> "For us, it's something that one sees on television, but not in a
> little town like ours," Emeline said, according to La Voix du Nord.
>
> The case came to light when a couple gardening in their backyard in
> the northern town of Villers-au-Tertre found two babies' bodies in
> sealed plastic bags and called police.
>
> As word spread and reporters descended on the village, which local
> media have said has a population of about 700 people, residents said
> they were still reeling from the news.
>
> Cottrez, 45, grew up in Villers-au-Tertre. Her parents, farmers who
> are now dead, owned a large part of the arable land in the village,
> according to La Voix du Nord.
>
> Thursday morning, the village priest left eight candles in front of
> the door to the couple's home, La Voix du Nord reported.
>
> Police spoke to Cottrez and her husband, who had previously lived in
> the home, and Cottrez admitted immediately that she was the mother of
> the two babies the couple found gardening, Vaillant said. She then
> told police about six others concealed in their garage, Vaillant
> said.
>
> Those six bodies were also in sealed plastic bags but were covered by
> various objects, he said.
>
> Cottrez's attorney said Friday she denies burying the babies. "She is
> adamant about the fact that she did not bury the babies in the garden.
> She also says it is definitely not her husband. We don't know who did
> it but she is certain she didn't do it and neither did her husband,"
> Burton said.
>
> The babies were born between 1989 and 2006, but their exact birthdates
> aren't known, Vaillant said.
>
> Cottrez had psychological problems from her first pregnancy, said
> Pierre-Jean Gribouva, the lawyer for her husband.
>
> "My client is in a deep state of shock," Gribouva told CNN affiliate
> BFM. "He had no idea about this. He has totally fallen apart."
>
> A difficult first pregnancy sparked Cottrez's actions, Vaillant said.
> Because of her weight, the first pregnancy was "traumatic," and she
> didn't want to go through it again, he said.
>
> Vaillaint did not explain why Cottrez went through a second pregnancy
> with her other daughter before apparently committing the crimes.
>
> The father, Pierre-Marie Cottrez, hopes the public does not make
> "simplistic conclusions" about his wife, Gribouva told BFM.
>
> Despite reports that the husband had been charged, Vaillant said he
> was free to go but may still be investigated. Vaillant said he
> personally still had "doubts" about the father's story.
>
> "The sky has fallen in on his head," Vaillant said of the father.
>
> CNN's Saskya Vandoorne and Miranda Leitsinger contributed to this
> report.
>
> G > What IS your point in posting this, Dan?
> G > Do you think CPS IN FRANCE could have prevented this?
>
> DJS3 > Do you not see a point in posting this story, grag?
>
> G > It looks like you hate parents and you seek
> G > governmental intrusion into families using
> G > events like this to justify such intrusions.
> G >
> G > It's as if you work for the caseworkers or their labor union.
> G >
> G > Or the Socialist party.
>
> DJS3 > You failed to answer my question, grag.
>
> G > You're the one who posted the news story
> G > about the French Mom who concealed and
> G > killed 8 newborns over the years.
> G > You think I should explain why YOU posted it?
>
> DJS3 > The question was "Do you not see a
> DJS3 > point in posting this story, grag?"
>
> G > Since YOU posted it, that would be for you to say.
>
> DJS3 > Yes, I had a point in posting the story.
>
> DJS3 > Do you not see a point in posting this story, grag?
> DJS3 >
> DJS3 > The reason I ask that question, grag, is because
> DJS3 > the simple posting of the story with no
> DJS3 > comments by me caused you to conclude I
> DJS3 > "hate parents," and I "seek governmental
> DJS3 > intrusion into families using events like this
> DJS3 > to justify such intrusions."
> DJS3 >
> DJS3 > Do you not think the killing of eight babies
> DJS3 > justifies governmental intrusion into this family?
>
> Hindsight is always easy.

That's still not a reply to my question.

> Do you really want the level of governmental intrusion
> that it would take to prevent a chubby woman from
> secretly giving birth in a garage and killing those
> babies?

I wish she would have been caught prior to deaths of so many babies.

> In order for CPS to prevent something like this
> what level of intrusion would it take?

I never mentioned CPS.

And if CPS or the police weren't aware of what was going on I doubt
either could have prevented anything.

Three or four kids are killed by their parents or surrogate parents
every day in the US.

Drugs, alcohol, firearms and mentally ill significant others (like
yourself) will do what they do every year.

I doubt CPS or the police would ever have any effect on those crimes.


From: Dan Sullivan on
On Jul 31, 10:51 am, Dan Sullivan <dsull...(a)optonline.net> wrote:
> On Jul 31, 9:57 am, Greegor <greego...(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.child-protective-services/...
>
> >http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/30/france.dead.babies/index.html
> > French woman accused of killing 8 newborns 'very distressed'By the CNN
> > Wire StaffJuly 30, 2010 12:57 p.m. EDT
>
> > Woman held over the deaths of 8 babiesSTORY HIGHLIGHTS
> > Mother's attorney says she's "distressed," "depressed" and "falling
> > apart"
> > Attorney says the woman admits killing and hiding the babies, but
> > denies burying them
> > Daughters say news that their mother killed 8 newborns is
> > "incomprehensible"
> > Prosecutors say the woman is overweight and could conceal her
> > pregnancies
> > Douai, France (CNN) -- A French woman who admitted to giving birth to
> > and then smothering eight babies over a 17-year period is "falling
> > apart," according to her attorney.
>
> > Lawyer Frank Berton told CNN Friday the woman, Dominique Cottrez, was
> > "psychologically very distressed. She is depressed and falling apart.
> > However, she admits to the crimes and she even helped the police
> > discover the bodies."
>
> > Cottrez told investigators she killed the babies because she did not
> > want to have any more children and did not want to see doctors for
> > contraceptives, prosecutor Eric Vaillant told reporters Thursday.
> > Cottrez is overweight and was able to conceal the pregnancies, he
> > said. On Thursday, prosecutors said they had charged her with murder.
>
> > "She has been plagued by this for a long time and now she is
> > relieved," Attorney Burton said. "My client will be undergoing
> > psychological tests and treatment to try and understand what pushed
> > her to commit these murders." Burton speculated on one reason: "I
> > believe she could have suffered from pregnancy denial." Burton said
> > Cottrez was a nurse assistant. "She comes from a conventional
> > background. Something went very wrong. One cannot spiral down into
> > horror without an explanation."
>
> > Cottrez was secretive but always supportive of her family, two of her
> > daughters said in a local newspaper report published Friday.
>
> > "It's incomprehensible," Virginie, 21, told La Voix du Nord newspaper.
>
> > Cottrez said she hid the pregnancies and deaths from her husband,
> > Vaillant said. And daughters Virginie and Emeline, who came to court
> > to support their mother Thursday, told La Voix du Nord they were also
> > shocked by the news.
>
> > "We never noticed anything. She had moments of fatigue, it's true, but
> > she was working almost 24 hours a day. She would wake up early for her
> > work as a nurse's home aid, and when she would return home, she had
> > her housework," the newspaper reported the daughters' saying.
>
> > Map: Babies' bodies found in France RELATED TOPICS
> > France
> > They described their mother as a caring person who often babysat her
> > grandchildren.
>
> > "For us, it's something that one sees on television, but not in a
> > little town like ours," Emeline said, according to La Voix du Nord.
>
> > The case came to light when a couple gardening in their backyard in
> > the northern town of Villers-au-Tertre found two babies' bodies in
> > sealed plastic bags and called police.
>
> > As word spread and reporters descended on the village, which local
> > media have said has a population of about 700 people, residents said
> > they were still reeling from the news.
>
> > Cottrez, 45, grew up in Villers-au-Tertre. Her parents, farmers who
> > are now dead, owned a large part of the arable land in the village,
> > according to La Voix du Nord.
>
> > Thursday morning, the village priest left eight candles in front of
> > the door to the couple's home, La Voix du Nord reported.
>
> > Police spoke to Cottrez and her husband, who had previously lived in
> > the home, and Cottrez admitted immediately that she was the mother of
> > the two babies the couple found gardening, Vaillant said. She then
> > told police about six others concealed in their garage, Vaillant
> > said.
>
> > Those six bodies were also in sealed plastic bags but were covered by
> > various objects, he said.
>
> > Cottrez's attorney said Friday she denies burying the babies. "She is
> > adamant about the fact that she did not bury the babies in the garden.
> > She also says it is definitely not her husband. We don't know who did
> > it but she is certain she didn't do it and neither did her husband,"
> > Burton said.
>
> > The babies were born between 1989 and 2006, but their exact birthdates
> > aren't known, Vaillant said.
>
> > Cottrez had psychological problems from her first pregnancy, said
> > Pierre-Jean Gribouva, the lawyer for her husband.
>
> > "My client is in a deep state of shock," Gribouva told CNN affiliate
> > BFM. "He had no idea about this. He has totally fallen apart."
>
> > A difficult first pregnancy sparked Cottrez's actions, Vaillant said.
> > Because of her weight, the first pregnancy was "traumatic," and she
> > didn't want to go through it again, he said.
>
> > Vaillaint did not explain why Cottrez went through a second pregnancy
> > with her other daughter before apparently committing the crimes.
>
> > The father, Pierre-Marie Cottrez, hopes the public does not make
> > "simplistic conclusions" about his wife, Gribouva told BFM.
>
> > Despite reports that the husband had been charged, Vaillant said he
> > was free to go but may still be investigated. Vaillant said he
> > personally still had "doubts" about the father's story.
>
> > "The sky has fallen in on his head," Vaillant said of the father.
>
> > CNN's Saskya Vandoorne and Miranda Leitsinger contributed to this
> > report.
>
> > G > What IS your point in posting this, Dan?
> > G > Do you think CPS IN FRANCE could have prevented this?
>
> > DJS3 > Do you not see a point in posting this story, grag?
>
> > G > It looks like you hate parents and you seek
> > G > governmental intrusion into families using
> > G > events like this to justify such intrusions.
> > G >
> > G > It's as if you work for the caseworkers or their labor union.
> > G >
> > G > Or the Socialist party.
>
> > DJS3 > You failed to answer my question, grag.
>
> > G > You're the one who posted the news story
> > G > about the French Mom who concealed and
> > G > killed 8 newborns over the years.
> > G > You think I should explain why YOU posted it?
>
> > DJS3 > The question was "Do you not see a
> > DJS3 > point in posting this story, grag?"
>
> > G > Since YOU posted it, that would be for you to say.
>
> > DJS3 > Yes, I had a point in posting the story.
>
> > DJS3 > Do you not see a point in posting this story, grag?
> > DJS3 >
> > DJS3 > The reason I ask that question, grag, is because
> > DJS3 > the simple posting of the story with no
> > DJS3 > comments by me caused you to conclude I
> > DJS3 > "hate parents," and I "seek governmental
> > DJS3 > intrusion into families using events like this
> > DJS3 > to justify such intrusions."
> > DJS3 >
> > DJS3 > Do you not think the killing of eight babies
> > DJS3 > justifies governmental intrusion into this family?
>
> > Hindsight is always easy.
>
> That's still not a reply to my question.
>
> > Do you really want the level of governmental intrusion
> > that it would take to prevent a chubby woman from
> > secretly giving birth in a garage and killing those
> > babies?
>
> I wish she would have been caught prior to deaths of so many babies.
>
> > In order for CPS to prevent something like this
> > what level of intrusion would it take?
>
> I never mentioned CPS.
>
> And if CPS or the police weren't aware of what was going on I doubt
> either could have prevented anything.
>
> Three or four kids are killed by their parents or surrogate parents
> every day in the US.
>
> Drugs, alcohol, firearms and mentally ill significant others (like
> yourself) will do what they do every year.
>
> I doubt CPS or the police would ever have any effect on those crimes.

What's taking so long, grag???

Is your ghost writer on vacation?

Of course you could come back with a stupid response so I'd know you
wrote it yourself.
From: Frank McCoy on
Dan Sullivan <dsulldan(a)optonline.net> wrote:

>About 1400 kids die every year at the hands of their parents.
>
>How many kids die every year from foster parents, grag?

Actually, quite a few do.
The government though, won't release THOSE statistics, because it
makes them look bad.
http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-12-03/opinion/17326464_1_children-s-deaths-child-welfare-counties

I suspect, that far more *percentage wise* die in foster-care than in
their parents homes. It only makes sense.
1. Foster parents don't have as much reason to care for the kids as
their parents (again, on average) do.
2. The kids are already troubled and liable to get into worse trouble.
3. SOME foster parents are in it for the wrong reasons.

Still, it would look bad for those running the system, if the actual
figures were released, even so. People reading the raw figures
wouldn't take that into account.

And, finally, we keep reading about where children were yanked
screaming from loving parents, only to die in foster care.

THOSE make the news.
Actual numbers, if not released, cannot.
It's not in the government's interest to release figures that make it
look like they're not doing their jobs ... So, they don't.

If the numbers were GOOD, OTOH, they'd release them in a hurry.
So ... Almost by definition, they're bad.
We just don't know HOW bad.
Those who have a lot to lose, naturally won't release the figures.
"Private and Confidential information"
Well ... They have to "protect" the names of foster-parents who were
in charge when kids died.

It's rather like a government official prosecuting somebody for
leaking "private and restricted information" about his taking a bribe.
Mark the information "Confidential" and then prosecute anybody who
tells about his malfeasance in office.

It DOES happen!

--
_____
/ ' / ™
,-/-, __ __. ____ /_
(_/ / (_(_/|_/ / <_/ <_
From: Dan Sullivan on
On Jul 31, 7:49 pm, Frank McCoy <mcc...(a)millcomm.com> wrote:
> Dan Sullivan <dsull...(a)optonline.net> wrote:
> >About 1400 kids die every year at the hands of their parents.
>
> >How many kids die every year from foster parents, grag?
>
> Actually, quite a few do.
> The government though, won't release THOSE statistics, because it
> makes them look bad.

Actually the feds would get the info from the states who would get the
info from the counties, and that's where the problem lies (pardon the
pun). It's the info from the counties that is inaccurate.

> http://articles.sfgate.com/2006-12-03/opinion/17326464_1_children-s-d...
>
> I suspect, that far more *percentage wise* die in foster-care than in
> their parents homes.  It only makes sense.

I'm asking about children who're killed by their foster parents as
compared to the number of children who're killed by their parents..

> It DOES happen!

Correct.